No one has made blanket Takfir upon Deobandis
Every sunni muslim from Subcontinent who knows the major cause of difference between Sunnis and Deobandis , is aware of the Fatwa which you were talking about.
I made it very clear , the reason I requested you to provide the quote with reference. If you would have provided the quote , the whole issue would have been clear. Instead you concluded that I am denying the existence of that fatwa.
When Deobandis Mentions ‘ Hassamul Harmyan’ they say: Imam Ahmed Raza (Rh) issued fatwa against 4 scholars of Deoband.
They don’t mention , it was issued againt 5 and not 4. The first being Mawlana Ghulam Qadyani. Same tactics is employed when statements , like the one you made is quoted by Deobandis. The stand was not only against Deobandi scholars, but also against Ghulam Qadyan.
This is not something new.
Are Qadyanis out of Islam? Answer= Yes
Some one who does’t know ‘why’ they are outside the fold of Islam , he is told about Qadyanis. Even after learning this , he says’ I consider these Qadyanis to be muslims”.
What is the ruling on this second person? If you wish, you can consult any reputed scholar on this issue.
I already made a mention of those 2 questions in my previous post.
It is not wise to quote those” beating’ instances. I cannot accept that a Deobandi was beaten just because he entered a sunni masjid, others might believe. If I see a Deobandi scholar entering sunni masjid , I would be happy that finally he has left the group whose leadership is from those person who showed disrepect to prophet.
In order to avoid , mentioning these type of ” personal experince” it is better, if you agree , that we stick to Books. Will you believe me that a group of Deobandis had’ Kawwa (crow) Biryani” feast in order to gain rewards? And suppose I bring some newpsper cutting to prove this , you still have every right to reject that Newspaper report.
If I would like to know what is the standing of a scholar on any given issue , I would contact him through email.
No Sunni Scholar has ever made any takfiri Fatwa on ” all ” the Deobandis. The definition of ” Deobandi” differes from person to person. I know many scholars who have graduated from Darul Uloom Deoband and have accepted the Fatwa Of Imam Ahmed Raza (kh) and have done bayyah on the hands of * sunni shuyookh*.
Many sunni ( barelwis) eat animals slaughtered by Deobandi butcher, because the butcher is not at all aware that Deobandi Scholars said * Allah CAN lie* or , ‘ The prophet being higher than angels of death , does not mean , he had more or even egual knwoledge in these (earthly) matter. The butcher is still considered a Deobandi because he performs prayer in Deobandi masjid , considers Mawlid as Haram and some of them who do not have knowledge even considers Mawlid as ‘ SHIRK’ ( refere Taqwiyatul Iman which states , standing in honour of anyone except Allah is shirk).
Does that mean I come here on forum and say’ Deobandis call Mawlid as shirk”? Will I make any sense ,that instead of quoting books I am quoting a butcher who is not aware of these matters?
But sunni muslim do not give this benifit of doubt when it comes to Prayer. Salah is a high form of worship and every one wants to make sure that , he performs it with all conditions.All Deobandi Imams in subcontinent atleast know , what statements their’ Akabir’ made. They agree with those ‘akabir’ and consider them as their leader. It means they agree to those statements which their akabir made.
A sunni muslim cannot perform salah behind a man who agrees with another man on the issue of ‘ Allah CAN lie”.
Both , Deobandi and Barelwis agree and know that Salah behind a man who thinks Allah is localised in a place, is not valid. Mawlana Rashid Ahmed said , salah should not be performed behind a person who thinks Allah gave knoeledge of unseen to prophet. ( it is shirk as per him).
Having known all these facts, it should not be said that sunnis don’t perform salah behind deobandis.
Books of fiqh gives more details on this issue.
I cannot imagine that my prayer being led by a man who loves and praises a man who said ‘ Allah can lie/ knowledge of prophet is like that of lunatics and animals/ prohets knowledge is less than angel of death and other statements which have been scnned on this forum.
The scholar of Ahlus sunnah cannot go and tell each and every sunni that what is Imakn e kidhb or wat Mawlana Ismaeel Dehalvee said or What Mawlana Rashid Ahmed said ot What Mawlana Thanvee said. So the easiet way is he tells them : Do not perform salah behind a Deobandi scholar.
Infact most of the sunni population does not even know what is the major cause of difference between sunnis and Deobandis!
They think , because Deobandis call * every type of mawlid* as imperssible and an ugly biddah ( Fatwa Rashidiya) , so these Deobandis are wrong. Some of them know that as per Deobandis hugging and hand shaking (musafa) on eidul fiter and eid ul azha is a biddah ( fatwa Rashidiya) so Deobandis are wrong. Some of them know as per Deobandis travelling to any grave for visiting is un islamic act ( Taqwiyatul Iman) , hence Deobandis are wrong.
These are the issues which a normal sunnit or a deobandi considers to be the basis of difference. But the scholars of Ahlus sunnah know the ruling on those who say Allah Can lie or those who have shown disrepect to prophet. So without telling those details , the scholars give a simple ruling; Do not perform salah behind deobandis.
The responsiblity upon scholars is more and they help us by providing those ruling which helps us to make our salah better .
You can try this on your friend. When you meet him , just say” your leve of knowledge is same as the knoweldge possesed by my pet dog ( if u r a maliki) or the knowledge possesed by this road side lunatic,, just see how he reacts.Imagine if some one tells you this word. And then imagine some one said these words to the most beloved of Allah.
You don’t have to be a barelwi or deobandi to make your decision on this matter. Any muslim can analyse this and make a decision.
You dont have to accept fatwa of Iman Ahmed Raza (rh). What one can do is , put these statements in front of any scholar who fears Allah and knows fiqh and see what his ruling is.
Imam Ahmed Raza Khan (RH) never said all deobandis are kafir. He said after knowing the kufr of those who have shown disrespect to prophet , if people still consider those people to be muslims , then they are also on Kufr.
This is also accepted by Deobandi scholars , as I have shown few rules on this topic from Top deobandi akabir. It is not something which Deobandis dont accept.
Second, which is very important point.
In the fatwa of Waque Kidhb, let us assume the fatwa was not issued by Mawlana Rashid Gangohee( the fact being he did issue it, but that is not the point now). The fatwa deals with a man who in course of discussiion said that he accepts and it is his belief that Allah lied. The matter was brought to Mawlana Rashid Gangohee , and Mawlana said that as per him , this man is a muslim and we should be soft towards him.
So when this matter was taken to Deobandi scholars , they also agreed that IF mawlana issued that fatwa , then yes , he is definitely on Kufr. So we see that they do not deny this principle of making takfir , what they deny is the realiability of this fatwa.
Similarly when this fatwa was taken to scholars of Makkah and Medina they did not say this act of approval by Mawlana Rashid Gnagohee is not a kufr. They approval was kufr , becaause Mawlana agreed with a Kufr.
Deobandis do not deny this usool of making takfir , what they deny is the validity of that fatwa issued by Mawlana Rashid Gangohee.
In the earlier post we have seen in clear terms that deobandis agree ( including Mawlana Rashid gangohee) that any disrespect to prophet is Kufr and also anothe fatwa by Mawlana Darbhagee al deobandi that those who deny kufr is also in kufr. So every thing is from their own house.
In the fitna of Khawarij, those who were against Sayyeduna Ali (Rd) were not given benifit of doubt. Only the leader of Khawarij was talking and refuting to Ali (rd) , all others just agreed and followwed him. Ali (rd) fought against the whole army , not just the leader.
The barelwis have never said that all deobandis are kafir. It is a lie. Imam Ahmed Raza Khan( rh) waited for nearly 12 years before issuing the fatwa against those who said knowledge of prophet is like knowledge of animals , lunatic etc . He sent letters to Mawlana Ashraf ali thanvee ( scanned and posted on this forum) and there was no reply.
Eevn in present time , the barelwi scholars say that those deobandi scholar who are not aware of wat statements their akabir said , can not be called on wrong path. I know many Deobandi from UK , who are never told that Mawlana Ashraf ali thanvee compared knwoledge of propjhet with 4 legged animals. They do not know that it is written in their book that their dead scholars come from grave and help their students.
Now , these deobandis are innocent. They do not know anything about these writings and no fatwa is applicable to them.
However if they agree with those who have shown disrespect to prophet ( which is kufr as per all of their scholars including Mawlana rashid and Shaykh Anwar shah) then as per their own rules they commit an act of kufr.
( I have already posted deobandi fatwa on this topic)